Tuesday, April 17, 2007
piper is right on calvin
I did not think I would but I found a 2 gig I pod on Mon and I got it. It is going to work out well as I am listening for things on the bible to place to you the readers on this page. I am always thinking and I want to go back to the topic of calvinism for a night and just place some things piper had to say. I want to see what he said about the histroy of this. It might be a long paper tonight
"For Those Whom He Foreknew"
Verse 29: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son." What does "foreknew" mean? Some have taken it to mean that God simply foresees who will believe on him and these are the ones he predestines to be like Jesus. But this assumes two things that are not true. One is that the faith God foresees is ultimately and decisively our work, not his work. In other words, the point of this interpretation is that God does not cause our faith, he only foresees the faith which we cause.
Now this is not what the Bible teaches, not elsewhere (Philippians 1:29; Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 2:24-26; Matthew 16:17), nor here in the context. When Paul says in Romans 8:30, "Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified," he means all the called are justified. But to be justified we must believe (Romans 5:1). So he is saying all those who are called believe and are justified. But how can he say ALL who are called believe? The reason, as I tried to show in the exposition of "called" in verse 28, is that the call is the powerful work of God to bring about what he demands. It's an effective call. It's a call that creates what it commands. It's a call like "Lazarus, come forth!" and the dead man lives. So the point is, believing for justification is not some thing I do on my own. God enables me. God empowers me. I must do it. Believing is something I do. But my doing is a gift of God. I do not take ultimate credit for it. I thank God for it. I am saved by sovereign grace from first to last.
So it is wrong to assume that when Romans 8:29 says, "God foreknew" some, it means he simply foresaw that they would believe by their own power. He gave that power, and so some something more is going on here than the mere foreseeing of what we do.
Here's the other mistaken assumption of this view. It assumes that the meaning of "foreknowing" is not the meaning it has in many Old and New Testament texts that would give a more coherent meaning to this passage. Listen to these uses of "know" and ask yourself what each means. In Genesis 18:19 God says of Abraham, "I have known him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord." Virtually all the English versions translate this, "I have chosen him." In Amos 3:2 God says to the people of Israel, "You only have I known among all the families of the earth." He knew about all the families, but only chose Israel. In Matthew 7:23 Jesus said to the hypocrites at the judgment day, "I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." Psalm 1:6 says, "The Lord knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish." He knows about the way of the wicked too. But he knows the way of the righteous in the sense of approving and recognizing and loving. In Hosea 13:5 God says to Israel, "I knew you in the wilderness, In the land of drought," meaning he took note of your plight and cared for you. And Genesis 4:1 says, "Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain." That is, he made her his, and knew her intimately and loved her.
(Romans 8:33; 9:11; 11:5,7).
So we have to see what the words mean in the bible as a whole. Know has to be the right word in the text. Here is a lession in reading the bible, when a word is used it is good to see it in other bible passages. It is good to look it up in a concordance and a book of greek words and see what it means.
I don't say this to scold you or condemn you if you struggle. Just the opposite. I say it to encourage you that just like behavioral conformity to Jesus is a life-long battle with wrong deeds, and emotional conformity to Jesus is a life-long battle with wrong feelings, so intellectual conformity to Jesus is a life-long battle with wrong thinking. So I am never surprised when some folks stumble over the harder teachings of Scripture. Conformity to Christ does not come all at once, neither, behavioral, nor emotional, nor intellectual.
So let's pray for each other, that in every way Christ might be exalted through our conformity to him, and we might enjoy the massive assurance that because of our election and predestination everything will work together for our good. And if you sit there wondering: am I among the chosen, the predestined, the called, here's how you can know: Do you see Jesus as more to be desired than anything else, and sufficient to save you from your sin, and satisfy your heart forever? That is the mark of God's child. He who has the Son has life (1 John 5:12). To has many as received him, to them God gave the right to be become the children of God (John 1:12). Receive him!
Back in the time before the American war for freedom man as a whole had Calvinist theology,. In the time of the reformers a ton of preachers were indeed Calvin like. The pilgrims were Calvinist and the churches first started this land and gave us freedoms we have in this land today. In fact the London confession was a baptist creed and they were of this to. The concept of freedom of choice was not a part of the church until the 1900s.
"For Those Whom He Foreknew"
Verse 29: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son." What does "foreknew" mean? Some have taken it to mean that God simply foresees who will believe on him and these are the ones he predestines to be like Jesus. But this assumes two things that are not true. One is that the faith God foresees is ultimately and decisively our work, not his work. In other words, the point of this interpretation is that God does not cause our faith, he only foresees the faith which we cause.
Now this is not what the Bible teaches, not elsewhere (Philippians 1:29; Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 2:24-26; Matthew 16:17), nor here in the context. When Paul says in Romans 8:30, "Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified," he means all the called are justified. But to be justified we must believe (Romans 5:1). So he is saying all those who are called believe and are justified. But how can he say ALL who are called believe? The reason, as I tried to show in the exposition of "called" in verse 28, is that the call is the powerful work of God to bring about what he demands. It's an effective call. It's a call that creates what it commands. It's a call like "Lazarus, come forth!" and the dead man lives. So the point is, believing for justification is not some thing I do on my own. God enables me. God empowers me. I must do it. Believing is something I do. But my doing is a gift of God. I do not take ultimate credit for it. I thank God for it. I am saved by sovereign grace from first to last.
So it is wrong to assume that when Romans 8:29 says, "God foreknew" some, it means he simply foresaw that they would believe by their own power. He gave that power, and so some something more is going on here than the mere foreseeing of what we do.
Here's the other mistaken assumption of this view. It assumes that the meaning of "foreknowing" is not the meaning it has in many Old and New Testament texts that would give a more coherent meaning to this passage. Listen to these uses of "know" and ask yourself what each means. In Genesis 18:19 God says of Abraham, "I have known him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord." Virtually all the English versions translate this, "I have chosen him." In Amos 3:2 God says to the people of Israel, "You only have I known among all the families of the earth." He knew about all the families, but only chose Israel. In Matthew 7:23 Jesus said to the hypocrites at the judgment day, "I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." Psalm 1:6 says, "The Lord knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish." He knows about the way of the wicked too. But he knows the way of the righteous in the sense of approving and recognizing and loving. In Hosea 13:5 God says to Israel, "I knew you in the wilderness, In the land of drought," meaning he took note of your plight and cared for you. And Genesis 4:1 says, "Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain." That is, he made her his, and knew her intimately and loved her.
(Romans 8:33; 9:11; 11:5,7).
So we have to see what the words mean in the bible as a whole. Know has to be the right word in the text. Here is a lession in reading the bible, when a word is used it is good to see it in other bible passages. It is good to look it up in a concordance and a book of greek words and see what it means.
I don't say this to scold you or condemn you if you struggle. Just the opposite. I say it to encourage you that just like behavioral conformity to Jesus is a life-long battle with wrong deeds, and emotional conformity to Jesus is a life-long battle with wrong feelings, so intellectual conformity to Jesus is a life-long battle with wrong thinking. So I am never surprised when some folks stumble over the harder teachings of Scripture. Conformity to Christ does not come all at once, neither, behavioral, nor emotional, nor intellectual.
So let's pray for each other, that in every way Christ might be exalted through our conformity to him, and we might enjoy the massive assurance that because of our election and predestination everything will work together for our good. And if you sit there wondering: am I among the chosen, the predestined, the called, here's how you can know: Do you see Jesus as more to be desired than anything else, and sufficient to save you from your sin, and satisfy your heart forever? That is the mark of God's child. He who has the Son has life (1 John 5:12). To has many as received him, to them God gave the right to be become the children of God (John 1:12). Receive him!
Back in the time before the American war for freedom man as a whole had Calvinist theology,. In the time of the reformers a ton of preachers were indeed Calvin like. The pilgrims were Calvinist and the churches first started this land and gave us freedoms we have in this land today. In fact the London confession was a baptist creed and they were of this to. The concept of freedom of choice was not a part of the church until the 1900s.
